#TDSU Episode 278:

Authority & discipline

with Mike Lemire


Mike Lemire laments the rock and the hard place CS leaders have historically been put in.

  • ⏱️ Timestamps:

    00:00:00 - Intro

    00:02:49 - The CS leadership trap

    00:03:19 - Head of CS: A limbo role

    00:04:26 - Titles and their implications

    00:06:10 - Personal stories: Climbing the ladder

    00:07:50 - Challenges in career pathing

    00:08:34 - The hall monitor analogy

    00:09:13 - Why CS isn't valued

    00:10:28 - Unpacking the title resistance

    📺 Lifetime Value: Your Destination for GTM content

    Website: https://www.lifetimevaluemedia.com

    🤝 Connect with the hosts:

    Dillon's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dillonryoung

    JP's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeanpierrefrost/

    Rob's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-zambito/

    👋 Connect with Mike Lemire:

    Mike's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaellemire/

  • [Mike] (0:00 - 0:25)

    They're responsible for tactical execution, right? Some fundamental team leadership stuff. But what they don't get the ability to do is develop strategy and own budget, usually.

    Like, I see those two things. Or if it's a budget ownership, it's a budget ownership with a leash. They're really not fully owning their organization the same way that a VP would.

    And it's really tricky. It's almost the executive equivalent of being a team lead.

    [Dillon] (0:34 - 0:45)

    What's up, Lifers, and welcome to The Daily Standup with Lifetime Value, where we're giving you fresh new customer success ideas every single day. I got my man Rob with us. Rob, you want to say hi?

    [Rob] (0:46 - 0:51)

    Yeah! We're talking musicians here.

    [Dillon] (0:53 - 1:01)

    That is creative interpretation you just used. And we have JP with us.

    Do you want to say hi?

    [JP] (1:01 - 1:04)

    I couldn't avert my gaze from the passion fruit beignets.

    [Dillon] (1:05 - 1:10)

    And we have Mike with us. Mike, can you say hi, please?

    [Mike] (1:11 - 1:12)

    Hello, everybody.

    [Dillon] (1:12 - 1:13)

    Good. Good.

    [Mike] (1:14 - 1:15)

    Nice normal one for you, Dillon.

    [Dillon] (1:15 - 1:30)

    With a smirk on your face, I can't help but notice. And I am your host. My name is Dillon Young.

    Mike, thank you so much for being here and for playing along. This is our first one of the day and already a little bit off the rails. Can you please introduce yourself, Mike?

    [Mike] (1:30 - 1:47)

    Yes, happy to be here. Thanks for having me, guys. My name is Mike Lemire.

    I lead a leadership firm called Harmonic Leadership. So Rob's right. We're going to talk a little bit of music, I hope.

    And so my firm focuses on executive coaching and customer success leadership development.

    [Dillon] (1:48 - 1:49)

    Wow. OK.

    [Mike] (1:50 - 2:00)

    And when I'm not doing that, I'm a singer too. So we can get into some music. Like me.

    Just like Rob. Just like Rob, Lil' Job, Zambito. Yeah.

    [Dillon] (2:02 - 2:14)

    Now, I was going to ask you to sing us a tune, a few lines. But I don't want to open the door for Rob to think he can do the same. So we're going to let him sing.

    [JP] (2:14 - 2:16)

    Do a song by Wham. He can't follow you there.

    [Dillon] (2:17 - 2:18)

    No, no, no, none of this.

    [Mike] (2:18 - 2:22)

    We have four guys on the line. We could do a barbershop quartet tag if we want to.

    [Dillon] (2:22 - 2:48)

    We sure could. JP and I are on the lower register. We could be the baritone, certainly.

    But no, I don't want to. OK. Save that for the paid content.

    That's for the Patreon. Exactly. We don't have it set up yet.

    So you guys are just going to have to wait. Mike, you know what we do here. We ask every single guest one simple question, which is what is on your mind when it comes to customer success?

    Why don't you tell us what that is for you?

    [Mike] (2:49 - 2:59)

    Yeah. So for me, I think right now it's the trap of being called the head of customer success and what it means to be head of customer success.

    [Dillon] (3:02 - 3:11)

    JP's laughing, but he also leaned forward. I thought that was a reference to head, like he was showing us his head. I don't know.

    But tell me I've been ahead of customer success.

    [Mike] (3:12 - 3:12)

    Yeah.

    [Dillon] (3:12 - 3:19)

    I don't know if I if I would have. Well, yeah, it was a trap. You're right.

    Tell us more. What do you think about it?

    [Mike] (3:19 - 3:50)

    So it's an interesting role for me where I see it across the industry where it's sort of a recognition that they need someone to lead a division, but it's not elevating them to the same levels of VP, EVP, SVP, or C-suite that other divisions within the organization get. So it sort of leads leaves this head of customer success leader in this odd limbo we place where they're a leader of a division but may not have the same seat at the table as other executives within the company.

    [Dillon] (3:51 - 4:25)

    And are in many ways maybe less powerful isn't the word. But I remember feeling fraudulent when trying to talk to my VP of sales or my SVP of product and refer to them as colleagues. Mm hmm.

    And they probably didn't give me a funny look, but maybe it sort of felt like I was projecting a funny look from them because it didn't feel like we were on a level playing field. JP, what's this make you think of?

    [JP] (4:26 - 6:09)

    Oh, Mike, Mike, did I hit a chord? You did. Oh, yeah, you did, brother.

    You did. You did. Yeah, I mean, you framed it perfectly.

    I've never been a head of CS or anything, and I think that we have discussed what titles actually mean. And it is a really interesting subject because I think it also dovetails with, like, what is a promotion? Like, is a promotion, like, what does that mean?

    You know, it sounds good, but what does it mean? Just like Dillon saying, like, you know, I actually really empathize with what he said when you have this title and then you go to talk with other people because you're feeling like you are on, for lack of a better word, just like the same level. Like, we're going to be able to speak the same language and we're exchanging a certain level of respect.

    And so I think that, yeah, this distinction of it makes me think, OK, if someone's called a VP of CS versus a head of CS or, you know, CCO, there's sort of, like, these different titles that can be given to people. But I sort of think about, in the end, what are they going to really be able to do for the CS organization? Like, are they just, like, do they just have a sign, like, in a year and a half, I will be let go?

    Or is it like, oh, yeah, let me, let me, Rob, Rob, let me, Rob. You go ahead.

    [Rob] (6:10 - 6:55)

    You know what I'm thinking of? I went through, like, my first CS leadership position, I went through, like, nine months of asking my CEO to be the director. He would, he would come visit town once a month.

    Every month we'd sit down, grab lunch, grab coffee. And I'd say, so can I be the director now? He's like, no, titles are bad.

    And, you know, hierarchies are bad. And I know, I know I'm striking a chord with you, Dillon. We've got chords struck all around.

    But it's funny because, you know, I was like, well, then what do I, what am I doing here? I'm leading a team of, like, 13 people. And he's like, well, you head up customer success.

    And I was like, head up, head of, you said, right? So then I, like, spoke at this little meetup and I was like, I'm the head of customer success. And he sat in the back of the room like, okay, okay.

    [Mike] (6:56 - 6:57)

    It sits in two, the regional manager.

    [Rob] (7:01 - 7:50)

    What I just want to say real quick is because there's, there's a lot there, there, I realized why we had so much difficulty here with that title. I think there are two parts of this trap. I think number one, if you're a head of, there's a significant problem with like career pathing and like comp banding in particular.

    Like how do you comp band around a head of CS? It's very unclear whether you're talking about a team lead, a team manager, a VP, a director, a CCO, like all of those things, head CS. And the second problem is that it's really hard to hire above a head.

    You know, you can hire above a director of customer success, but hiring above a head is really difficult. So I found the title to be very unhealthy, except in rare situations like mine, where I like levered myself into the position, but go ahead.

    [Mike] (7:50 - 8:28)

    And what it translates to, it feels like is, is that what I see is that they're responsible for tactical execution, right? Some fundamental team leadership stuff. But what they don't get the ability to do is develop strategy and own budget, usually.

    Like I see those two things, or if it's a budget ownership, it's a budget ownership with a leash. They're really not fully owning their organization the same way that a VP would. And it's really tricky.

    It's almost the executive equivalent of being a team lead, right? Like, or you've got direct reports, but you can't fire them. So what exactly are you doing as a team lead?

    You know, it's sort of that limbo state in leadership.

    [Rob] (8:28 - 8:33)

    It's like being a hall monitor. You get to wear a sash and tell people to go to class.

    [Mike] (8:34 - 8:40)

    Kind of, yeah. And it feels very consistent in the customer success space, more than other disciplines.

    [Dillon] (8:41 - 8:42)

    Here's my question.

    [Mike] (8:42 - 8:56)

    Yeah. Why? It's a good question.

    I think oftentimes, I don't have a strong thesis on this, but customer success is so different in every company. All right, let's hear yours, Dillon, because mine, I was going to- Because they don't value it.

    [Dillon] (8:57 - 8:57)

    Okay.

    [Mike] (8:57 - 8:58)

    They don't value it.

    [Rob] (8:59 - 9:02)

    Some, yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fair.

    For sure.

    [Dillon] (9:03 - 9:12)

    Tons of nuance. But I think, why wouldn't you give them, why give them all the accountability and no power if you don't believe in it?

    [Mike] (9:13 - 9:48)

    I think that's fair. I think it's the same reason why we see so many customer success organizations rolling up under CRO, right? Under a sales organization, right?

    The discipline of being a defensive coordinator, protecting revenue, is very different than growing revenue. And if you don't have a chief customer officer or a defensive coordinator within your organization, then everything falls under offense. And they just view it as like, they're just going to grow some revenue and keep it up.

    Most chief revenue officers have some skill set within customer success, but that's not their core focus. That's not where they spend most of their time.

    [Dillon] (9:49 - 10:03)

    Now, I know you're a music guy. You're a classical music guy. So maybe this will go, maybe this won't land.

    But that is like making Matt Patricia your offensive coordinator. And we saw how that went.

    [JP] (10:03 - 10:11)

    This guy, why, why? Keep my football team's name out of your bleeding mouth.

    [Rob] (10:13 - 10:16)

    I think it's Mike's team's too, if I'm not mistaken, right, Mike?

    [Mike] (10:16 - 10:26)

    I'm a Patriots guy. I mean, it's a little bit different to be a Patriots fan in this era than the era that I enjoyed so much. But yeah, that's my team still.

    [JP] (10:26 - 10:27)

    You mean the Cardi B era?

    [Dillon] (10:28 - 11:46)

    Cardi B era, yeah. It's a weird era. Well, Mike, I think you got to come back because I want to unpack this.

    I have, this is a question, this is one of the few questions I really have so little understanding about is why leaders, and look, you're an executive leader guy. You talk to him a lot, but you have this niche in CS. I need to understand why, even in Rob's anecdote, they are just so allergic to giving titles despite asking people to do the work.

    I just can't understand it. There is so much personal angst in this, given my history, but it just feels so disingenuous and such a gross power dynamic. I'm getting emotional.

    I'm going to cry. No, I'm kidding. But I do.

    I want to unpack it. I want to understand, and I think for people listening, they may want to understand it from the other side of things. Very easy to feel victimized in that situation, but I think there's a lot of value in trying to understand how to navigate around that.

    Again, out of time. Please come back. Let's make this a two-parter sooner rather than later.

    But for now, we do have to say goodbye, Mike. Would love to. Thanks for having me, everyone.

    [Mike] (11:46 - 11:47)

    We'll see you next time.

    [VO] (12:18 - 12:29)

    Do advertising at lifetimevaluemedia.com. Find us on YouTube at Lifetime Value. And find us on the socials at Lifetime Value Media.

    Until next time.

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#277: Reaching across the aisle w/ Ricardo Araujo