#WFU Episode 18:

In this episode, we're joined by Anika Zubair to chat knowing your numbers:

00:00:00 - The boardroom disaster

00:03:34 - Peeing yourself in front of the board

00:05:40 - What went wrong with the metrics

00:08:13 - Living in spreadsheet hell

00:10:09 - Getting help with your data

00:12:06 - Ask for help, not a miracle

00:15:01 - When the data doesn’t exist

00:18:00 - The CS leader as CSM to the team

00:23:27 - Weekly rituals that save your ass

00:26:57 - You don’t get a safety net

00:34:23 - Why CSMs should know their numbers

00:38:56 - Leading with kindness and humility

And hey, we want to hear from you! What topics do you want us to tackle next? Reach out and let us know. Remember, we’re here to share how We Fucked Up So You Don’t Have To.

Reach out to Melanie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanie-faye/

Reach out to Stino: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stijn-smet-%F0%9F%90%B3-330435a9/

[Anika] (0:00 - 0:31)

I never made this mistake again because I was so traumatized by it. So I basically got very comfortable with my numbers, even in other meetings, like executive team meetings, or even product meetings. If they asked like, hey, what's our NRR right now?

Or how are we tracking towards the renewals for this year? I knew it because I was so embarrassed from peeing my pants in front of the board and getting so embarrassed by my numbers that if you asked me at any other team meet, I would have it ready.

[VO] (1:04 - 1:16)

Customer Success Manager offers invaluable career insights. Together, they'll laugh, learn, and navigate the twists and turns of the customer success journey. So buckle up and let's dive in.

[Stino] (1:19 - 2:06)

Hi everyone, and welcome a new episode of the We Fucked Up So You Don't Have to Show Today. Literally, we have the queen bee, the household name. She is an award-winning customer success leader.

She is the podcast host of the Customer Success Pro podcast. She is also a customer success and revenue strategy coach, a keynote speaker, a founder, a CEO, a startup advisor. She is one of the godmothers, like literally you would have in Sleeping Beauty, one of the very godmothers of CS.

She has done literally everything for my career when I was a baby CSM. Of course, I'm talking about no one else than Anika Zubar. Hi, Anika.

How are you today?

[Anika] (2:07 - 2:28)

Oh my gosh. I was not as naturally tan as I am. I would be bright red from that introduction, but I am absolutely amazing.

I am so honored and excited to be on this show after listening to you for, I don't even know how long now, but I'm super honored. That introduction is just giving me all the serotonin I need for the day.

[Stino] (2:28 - 2:53)

Well, but it's true. You have laid the foundation for CS as we know it. Well, at least I think, because I've been in this game for what now?

Seven, eight years. Your name was the first one to pop up, so literally you are like, Rome wasn't built in a day, but you sure helped set the first stone of Rome, or as I like to call it, CS, as we know it now.

[Anika] (2:53 - 3:00)

I love this. I'm going to keep using soundbites from this podcast on my TV. I think that this is great.

[Stino] (3:02 - 3:14)

Well, Rome did also a little bit of a downfall, and not that I'm going to talk about your downfall, but we are going to talk about fuckups today, and the good thing about this is that we can swear.

[Anika] (3:15 - 3:20)

Yes. Oh my gosh. I can say bad words, or let's see how many words you say, but yeah.

Okay.

[Stino] (3:20 - 3:27)

I will ask our editor to count it, so we can just even maybe make it a challenge. Maybe not even one.

[Anika] (3:28 - 3:33)

Oh my gosh. I'm excited to be unfiltered and just have this raw conversation.

[Stino] (3:34 - 3:37)

Awesome. So what kind of fuckup did you bring us today?

[Anika] (3:38 - 5:40)

I'm a little nervous admitting this, but I think it made me into the leader I am today, but one of the many fuckups in my career, but one that we can talk about today is in my very first ever board presentation as an executive leader, I fucked up my metrics. I actually miscalculated something, and I didn't double check it before I had to go in and present. I just assumed it was right, and because of that, I presented the whole 30 minutes that I had to present on customer success to the board.

I was using the wrong calculation of NRR and GRR, and for everyone listening, net revenue retention, gross revenue retention, which are foundations, by the way, of customer success, but I fucked up my calculation, and I was reporting incorrectly to one of my very first board meetings that I had to do, and gosh, was it embarrassing. I was such a mess, and I only realized in the end. I was prepared.

I was going through the deck. I was reading everything out loud, and I prepared beforehand, and I was ready to present, but only at the end when I was starting to get questions from my board members that I really started to realize, oh shit, I've totally calculated this incorrectly, and I've spent 30 minutes giving you guys the wrong information, so yeah, that was- I would cry. I would.

Oh my gosh, so afterward, I think I was mini traumatized. I really was because from that day, I have triple checked numbers and known my numbers left, right, and center, which we can talk about the learnings, but honestly, it was so traumatic for me as a baby leader, literally my first leadership role where I had to go report into a board, and I was already nervous. I was the youngest person on the executive team.

I was just- everything was batting against me, and I was just like, oh, I'm just going to charm them and be amazing and know all my shit, and god, did I know very little shit going into that call.

[Melanie] (5:42 - 5:50)

But did they realize? Were they asking questions because they had an inkling that something was Yeah, they definitely did.

[Anika] (5:50 - 7:04)

They dug in, and that's normal, by the way, for anyone who's never reported at a board. It is definitely a conversation. Of course, you present your numbers, you present the findings, you look at the quarter and discuss, but the whole point of going to a board and reporting is that they are going to question, why did this happen?

Where can we make improvements? What are we doing to either fix or maybe even double down on a really great metric or whatever, and when they started asking me more detailed questions on the GRR and NRR number, I realized and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, but that is not the right calculation, and I'm gonna have to come back and not do this all over again, but follow up after this meeting with the right calculation because you are so right that this is not aligned to what we reported on the- and this was the first quarter of a new year, a new financial year, and they were like, oh, this looks so off from our- and the thing is, I didn't even stop to realize that. I didn't even think back on the last year.

Again, baby CS leader that was like, yay, I'm gonna report to the board, and everything's gonna be great, and I'm gonna be this boss babe, just slayed. No. No.

[Stino] (7:05 - 7:13)

But the thing is, like, what I love is that you said I need to follow up. This is indeed to wrong numbers. You own your shit.

[Anika] (7:13 - 7:13)

I did.

[Stino] (7:14 - 7:19)

And that is also a good thing because I would be too stunned to speak. I would be like, uh.

[Anika] (7:21 - 7:57)

Listen, I think I peed myself a little bit when I figured it out, but I was like, oh my gosh. I mean, I was basically being a CSM. Like, I'm pretty sure a lot of people when you mess up with your customer or you say something incorrectly, you're like, oh shit, and then you probably are like, listen, I'm gonna jump off this call, figure out the data, or figure whatever else out.

I had numbers of years of dealing with difficult customers, and I think I CSM'd my way out of that situation, basically, where I was like, I made a mistake. I'm only human, but I'm gonna figure it out and come back to you, but I really did have a moment where I'm sure I peed myself because I was like, oh shit.

[Stino] (7:58 - 8:13)

I would totally do too. And since it was at the beginning of your leadership career, like the landscape of technology is also completely different than it is right now. What was the data set that you were working with?

[Anika] (8:13 - 9:32)

I was at a scrappy startup, you know, like everything was in out of a HubSpot CRM, by the way, and then everything was exported to Google Sheets. Like, I was using Google Sheets and pivot tables and a bandaid to hold everything together. I didn't have a CS ops team.

I had five different people on my team at the time. My first head of customer success role, it was to support people on three CSMs. And I was reporting on, again, what the board wanted to see, which is our outcomes and metrics. And there was something wrong with the formula, but I was also pulling the wrong data.

That was the biggest issue. Like my data was being pulled and I don't know where I originally got it from. I didn't do that level of digging, but I realized that I was pulling the wrong data into that spreadsheet.

And because of that, the pivot table did not make sense when it came to the GRR and NRR number. And so, yeah, I totally fucked it up. But again, it was, it was me living on a band-aided data set that was just figuring things out.

And I think that I've been at a lot of startups and some have more richer data and a lot more tools, like you just said, to help me out. But for me, it was a lot was built on just our CRM, which was HubSpot at the time. And again, my abilities to put it into a spreadsheet.

[Stino] (9:32 - 10:08)

Yeah. Because there are a lot of people working in just like startups with the Google sheets, the Excel sheets whatsoever. Like what would your main tip be then if you're indeed don't have the access and you need to rely on quote unquote not so trustworthy data?

Because I know Melanie, you as well, like at your previous company, we talked about it a little bit more as well. Like you had no insights whatsoever in the product data or like how people turned. Like Annika for you as well, what would your main tip be for those first CS leaders that work with Excel?

For Christ's sake.

[Anika] (10:09 - 12:06)

Here's the thing. I've been at startups and scale-ups and I've consulted at even larger organizations too. You're always going to need to use Excel.

I mean, there's amazing tools out there right now. And I truly love the advancement of AI and how it's changing the CS space, but you do have to sometimes just use Excel. And I got way savvier with Excel before AI was even a thing.

And I also just, I started to ask for help. I think that was another big thing. Like I thought I'm a leader.

It's my first time, like I'll do it. I need to prove something to everyone. And the one thing I learned is I had to actually confer with my fellow leaders on what their data sets were saying and what they were seeing.

And I was like, if I questioned anything, I went and took my data to other teams and said, Hey, marketing, is this what you're seeing for customer acquisition costs? Cause that didn't seem to make sense to me. Like it was more collaborative when it came to the data, because even if it was wrong, if we were all wrong, at least we had the wrong.

Yes. That makes sense. Do you know what I mean?

Like we were all saying the wrong thing. There was clearly something for us to dig into versus one person saying it incorrectly, which was myself. And I would just say to any early leader, A Excel skills are never going to be a bad thing to invest in if you are using it, but B don't be afraid to double check or check with other leaders in the business because it's not a solo job as much as I thought it was when I was first taking like the first step towards it or the first stab.

So that's a big thing. And then, Oh, if you don't know Excel, like literally ask Chachi BT. Cause like nowadays I swear to God, I put data into Chachi BT.

I'm like, can you make this prettier? Can you build a data analysis on X, Y, Z column or whatever? Like it's so much easier now, but I would say just ask for help, whether it's AI or other people, like you're going to have to get comfortable with data or the lack thereof.

[Stino] (12:06 - 12:31)

Yeah. Because I think when you mentioned Excel skills, I was like, Oh, Chachi BT is indeed a good help. No, me and Excel are not good friends, but it's indeed like Chachi BT really helps because in that sense, I fucked it up as well.

And it's the same imposter syndrome, a little bit like when you're need to report on certain data that you're like, I will own the shit out of that presentation.

[Anika] (12:32 - 12:37)

I know it. Trust me that cocky side of myself. I was like, yeah, I could do all this.

[Stino] (12:37 - 12:58)

No humbled. And it's so yeah, indeed. And I think what I should have learned back then as well as indeed, don't be afraid to ask for help.

I think with that data set and comparing data sets with one another, with across departments is so valuable because indeed sometimes you spot mistakes very early on and you're not peeing yourself in front of the board.

[Anika] (12:58 - 13:43)

Yeah, honestly, I could have saved myself a lot of pain by just triple checking elsewhere. Like I thought I did a great job. I double checked, you know, it was my first time, but I didn't cross check anything.

And that's the thing is, I think sometimes in CS, we really feel like, oh, we've got to own the CS number. We have to own the CS department, which is a big part of the role. But like, I think the biggest mistake is thinking that I own just CS.

I'm building a business here with my counterparts, with sales, with marketing, with product, and I have to work with them. And again, baby CS leader back then, this was 10 years ago, I was like, no, I'm the boss. I've got this.

And yeah, humbled, truly humbled.

[Stino] (13:44 - 13:46)

What if you don't have any data?

[Anika] (13:46 - 15:01)

Yeah. Oh, I mean, I would really hope you're trying to track something, honestly, like you should be tracking something. And if you're not, then, wow, you must be doing so much double, triple work of the same thing.

Because some companies have intense data sets, they track everything from a login to a customer sneezing, you know, like what some companies track. And also, that might be unnecessary. But I really hope you're tracking some very basic things.

How many times your customer shows up to a call versus not? How many days it takes them to onboard? Some of these very simple things that you can manually track, I really hope you're tracking.

And I really hope even if you don't have any data in your company, you have a very basic spreadsheet that says, days to onboard, I don't know, like, number of calls attended, like whatever it is that makes sense that your business that shows you that you're a healthy customer, I hope you're tracking it, it doesn't have to be all built in. Because again, not every startup is going to have that. But I really hope for your benefit as a CS leader, you are tracking something.

Yeah, honestly, for sure.

[Stino] (15:01 - 15:13)

Like Melanie for a keeper for your previous job. Sorry, how do you guys do that? Because I know that we talked about it quite some time that it was also super hard for you guys to like generate data.

[Melanie] (15:14 - 16:28)

Yeah, I don't think I've had a role where it was easy to generate data. Like every role that I've as an IC, it's impossible to get the data because it just it exists somewhere. But someone is not seeing value in helping us pull that data into Salesforce or like wherever it should live so that we can access it.

So it's always been a challenge to say, hey, it would be nice to measure this and this and this, like, how can we get that data? And typically, you know, we would need engineering to do that, right. And it's just always put on the back burner and not seen as valuable or important.

And so a lot of times I just had like very bare bones metrics that didn't really mean a whole lot like logins. Yes, okay, that's a little bit helpful. But after they log in, I don't know what they're doing.

I can't see reports, I can't see what they're focused on. So you know, not super helpful. And these odd health scores that really don't mean a whole lot like pulling all of these weird metrics into this health score that also are meaningless, like it's really hard, I think, as a CSM to try and figure this data out if leadership isn't seeing it as important.

I agree.

[Stino] (16:28 - 16:38)

So let me ask you this, Annika, how important is it to bring the data to the CSMs? Not only to the board, but also to CSMs?

[Anika] (16:38 - 18:00)

No, I think it's absolutely critical. By the way, one thing I say as a leader is, and I say this to every CSM that's ever been on my team is, I'm actually your customer success manager. And I'm here to see the success of your career.

So please tell me how I can help you, basically. And if they were coming to me saying, Annika, I don't have the data or I don't like, as a leader, your job, and I say this to the leaders that I coach, you have three audiences or three people that you report to. One, whoever is your senior person.

So if you're reporting to the CEO or the board or whatever, whoever your manager is, right? The second is to your customers. So the whole customer base that you look after.

And the third is to your team, to your CSMs, because I can tell you, Melanie, go hit 120% NRR. But if I don't actually help you get there or enable you or give you the tools to succeed, I'm never going to be... I personally would never be successful because you're not going to be successful if I just tell you, go do something and don't give you the information that you need to be successful.

If, for example, you came and said, I don't have the data, I would be having a meeting with the product team saying, hi, this needs to be a priority because we are going to lose XYZ in dollars next quarter if this isn't prioritized. So awesome that we're building all these new features, but we're going to lose all this revenue if we do not provide data to our CSMs to keep the renewal.

[Stino] (18:00 - 18:13)

So as a leader, I would have to make sure I am getting that information from my CSMs. This, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason why Annika is the godmother, the fairy godmother of CS.

[Anika] (18:14 - 18:22)

I'm not, but I'm loving all... These are going to be my new titles, like my new LinkedIn headline is going to be these titles.

[Stino] (18:24 - 19:10)

Fairy godmother of CS. First stone layer in Rome, also known as CS. That's really good advice.

One piece of advice that I recently got is that we're basically, as a leader, a translator. Basically the exact same how you set it up. You're translating numbers to the board.

You are translating product messaging, value wins to your customers, but you're also translating everything that's happening above your head to the rest of the team. So we're constantly translating as well. What you said, setting down being your customer success manager, I think that is a really great statement.

I was going to say analogy, but it isn't even an analogy. It's really just a statement. So thank you for that.

I love that.

[Anika] (19:10 - 19:48)

Yeah, but you said something really good too, like the language thing. If you think about it, we do it every day. If you're a CSM with a book of business, you have to speak your customer's language.

They are not going to listen if you start talking about, I don't know, spaceships, but your product is about trucks or something. I have no idea. If you start talking about spaceships, your customers are going to look at you funny.

The same thing is a translator or the language you're speaking to your product team. They're not going to get it if you just say customer X is complaining. They're not going to care.

You have to translate to their language. The same thing goes for translating metrics to the board versus your team. You have to be the translator.

I love that you said that.

[Stino] (19:49 - 19:51)

Well, the love in this room.

[Melanie] (19:55 - 20:27)

I have to say though, as a non-leader, your team does want to know all of this. We want to know what are you reporting on? How can we continue to not just make the customer successful, but make the business successful?

We want to know the reason why you're reporting on things, what things mean, how we can help all of that. Because I think it's really valuable to have that, especially for people who want to advance their careers and eventually move into a leadership role. It's so helpful to know all of that as you're gaining those skills or learning from your own leader.

[Anika] (20:28 - 22:04)

It's so important to be, I think, transparent, but I think some people find transparency as a bad vulnerability for some reason. Even when I had my fuck up with the board, I went back to the team and I said, by the way, this is what happened. Next time we are going, not just I, we are going to check that this is right.

I'm human. I'm going to make mistakes, but this is what happened. By the way, in general, every single time I have had to go to a board, I've come back and told my team exactly what happened back from the board.

I know this from, again, experience of my CSMs telling me, but they get so intimidated. They're like, oh my gosh, does the board like what CS is doing? Are we going to be cut?

Are we providing value? All this stuff. I transparently tell them the board is here to keep us accountable to everything that we've promised our investors.

If we're not hitting our numbers, you will know it, they will know it, and we have to make changes. They're always going to give us strategic advice to be better. We need to take that advice on board.

I share it because, again, I don't care if you're a VP of a hundred people or just a small team. If you're not there to bring your team along for this journey, you're never going to be successful. Your team's not going to be successful and neither are you.

I believe in that level of transparency. I would be nowhere as a leader if I didn't have the teams that I've built alongside all of that too. That's why I always say I'm here to see you succeed because their success, like in customer success, your customer success is your success.

It's the same. Your CSM success is your success as a leader.

[Stino] (22:05 - 22:17)

That is so true. We are so much more than our title. Sometimes I have the feeling that people are like, I'm ahead of customer success.

I do it all on my own and I'm like, set yourself down.

[Anika] (22:17 - 22:24)

Yeah, I'm a VP. I sit in this ivory towel and I do all the strategy and I don't talk to customers. Gosh, oh my God.

[Stino] (22:24 - 22:58)

I literally vomit. Those people, those are the worst kind of people. That's for another episode.

Offline episode, a secret episode. No, back to the data, you went out of that boardroom. You went back to the drawing board and be like, okay, this is not going to happen again anymore.

So we have already cross-checking numbers with various departments. What is your other golden tip that you're like, you don't want to pee in my pants. This is the second thing that I'm always going to do when reporting on numbers.

[Anika] (22:58 - 23:26)

Yeah. I started doing it every week at our weekly team meetings. I basically ran our numbers and I never made this mistake again because I was so traumatized by it.

So I basically got very comfortable with my numbers. And that is one thing. I know a lot of people say, oh, I want a seat at the table.

First of all, it sucks. It really sucks sometimes having a seat at the table because it ends with you. If you make a mistake, it's an even mistake.

[Stino] (23:26 - 23:27)

You have no safety net.

[Anika] (23:27 - 24:41)

I don't care if everyone on the team knew this mistake, it ends with you. So I have to own that mistake of going to the board with the wrong numbers. But I think the one thing it taught me is I had to get super comfortable and in the know of my metrics and numbers.

And anyone at a drop of a hat, by the way, even in other meetings like executive team meetings or even product meetings, if they ask like, hey, what's our NRR right now or how are we tracking towards the renewals for this year? I knew it because I was so embarrassed from peeing my pants in front of the board and getting so embarrassed by my numbers that if you asked me at any other team meet, I would have it ready. And I personally spent the time every week running the numbers for my benefit, but also for my team's benefit.

I would bring it up at our team meeting thing. This is how we're tracking for quarterly upsells. What are we doing to move this metric?

This is how we're tracking towards renewals. What are we doing? I just got very comfortable with my metrics and numbers and then I made sure I practiced.

And my easiest way to practice was at my team meeting. And so I used it as a way to continue to make sure that the next time I was in front of the board, I wasn't presenting it for the first time. I just knew it and I was just talking about it.

[Stino] (24:42 - 26:11)

Yeah, 100%. And I think that's a really good tip because we have also our weekly scorecard. The thing is, yes, having a seat on the table sucks.

Not all the time, but it does. I love it because I always know which direction. I always like to know everything.

So in that sense, I really love it. Yeah, so I exactly know how we're pivoting, who is getting hired, who is getting fired. I love all of that.

But indeed, the numbers was for the longest time, that was not my forte. And like you said, I rather ran away from it and waited until I needed to present it and had this week of stress because I couldn't find the numbers. I didn't understand the numbers, stuff like that.

But having a weekly scorecard and giving it to your team, or even having your team responsible for some not less important metrics, but like, for example, on how our contraction is going or our expansion is going. Those are like weekly numbers that they can easily pull from our billing software. So I'm making them also responsible for that.

So it takes a group effort to make everyone a little bit more comfortable. So being comfortable with your numbers, such a great tip. And I was so scared for the longest time.

And the other hand, if you're doing it on a weekly basis, like you mentioned, if you clock in and you stand on top of your shit, you have your shit together.

[Anika] (26:11 - 26:52)

Yeah, so you don't have to do it all the time. Like I know I'm not the strongest Excel in my team. And I had someone else eventually in an operations team, own that spreadsheet.

And all I did was check it basically. But I mean, that's leadership. As you said, it's delegation.

It's making sure your team feels bought in. And again, it didn't start that way. But once I knew what I was looking for, it made sense to have other people focus on it too.

Somebody who's stronger, better at Excel, way better. And so it doesn't have to always be you, but you do have to own the metric and you have to own the number. And if you don't know it, and if you don't feel comfortable with it, you better know it and get comfortable with it because it is your number at the end of the day.

[Stino] (26:52 - 26:57)

Yeah, you don't have a safety net. If something fucks up, it's your hat that's going to roll.

[Anika] (26:57 - 27:47)

So exactly, they're gonna, I mean, think of it this way. Like, honestly, my sales counterparts always have to own the number of logos closed, right? And if their goal is 200k this quarter, and they only hit 100, they know it.

And they know that if they do that again next quarter, and then the next quarter, their head might roll, they might be fired. You know what I mean? They, a lot of other departments know their numbers.

And I know there's this debate that CS doesn't have a seat at the table, or we're not a strategic or not really the business leaders and all this stuff, right? Like reactive and all this shit. But I mean, you've got to know your numbers, like, your product team knows their numbers, they know how many products they release, they know how many customers are using those products.

Marketing knows how many qualified leads they brought in and how much revenue that generate like, you've got to know it. If you really want you've got to know it.

[Stino] (27:48 - 27:53)

Well, because I'm putting myself in your shoes, right?

[Melanie] (27:53 - 28:04)

And I'm thinking like, I don't even know what I would do. Where would I get these numbers from? I don't full I mean, I know what they mean.

But could I speak to them in front of a board? Probably not. You know, like, again, you learn as you own it.

[Anika] (28:04 - 28:38)

Because again, I, I honestly, I remember when I first did it, like a gr and our calculation, I was like, Okay, I have read plenty on this. But I'm like, Oh, my God, I have to actually now do this. Like, I mean, I was I remember reading Gaineside's book, like, you know, the blue book on stuff.

And like, I remember the first time I tried it. The thing is, with CS, as much as we have people doing things before us, like at your company, Melanie, I probably would also be like, shit, where do I get this information? Because yeah, it's every company's different.

And every metric was different. That's, yeah.

[Melanie] (28:39 - 29:08)

And that's why I love, you know, what you said, like, give some responsibility to the team so that they're learning and they're picking up on these things and seeing how important they are. And then what that comes back as after that board meeting, or like, what that discussion looked like that I think the transparency is so key, because a lot of us are missing that, like, there's a lot of secret or, you know, stuff that just doesn't filter or trickle back down to the rest of the team. And I, for one, I would love to know what happens in those meetings.

Like, what are the action items? What do we need to do better?

[Stino] (29:09 - 29:09)

A lot of wrestling.

[Anika] (29:11 - 31:04)

Joke of a meeting sometimes. Sometimes I always laugh when my team's like, oh, what did the executive team talk about this week? I was like, you know, we're just humans.

We talked about like random shit. And then of course, we talked about some business strategy and what's happening. And yeah, I don't know.

Like, I think that there's this huge, like elusive thing that there's like a strategic meeting that happens. And I'm like, yeah, there is to some degree, but also, it's okay. Like the whole point is we are human, and we're figuring it all out together.

But yeah, I do believe Melanie, what you said, like, I do think sharing both up and down is so important. And I again, some of my previous most best board reports were my whole team. They like they owned it, like the whole team actually knew I shared the slide deck, and they knew this is what we had to fill in.

And at some point, when I was hiring, like 20 CSMs in one year, I didn't have time. Like I was literally in interview calls all the time that my team, I had to rely on them to fill in the information. And they did, they did it brilliantly.

But again, I had to create the space, the safe space for them to do it. But also, I had to show them, I really do believe as a leader, you have to show your team how to succeed if you just expect them to succeed, which I think is something that's come out of the pandemic. And I think it's from remote working.

And I think it's from everyone being as distant as they were during the pandemic. But even now with the remote team, like I have to show you, like you have to get on a call with me, or I have to show you recording or let me do it. And then you do it.

And then I give you feedback or whatever it is. But I had to show my team exactly what I was looking for in the spreadsheet or in this board report. And that resulted in them feeling like they can own it because they felt safe.

They're like, Oh, Anika showed me I know how to do it. And also, I was always like, just ask me, literally just ask me, I would rather have you ask me than me look like a fool in front of the board. Yeah.

[Stino] (31:07 - 31:08)

And switch pants again.

[Anika] (31:09 - 31:17)

Yeah. Oh, my gosh, the number of pants I've had to change in my life. Way more information on a podcast that I plan on giving.

[Stino] (31:18 - 31:36)

No, but that's so true. And also the thing is, let's be honest, I'm not the best. And like when you mentioned, like we talked about your R&R.

And it's like, when you need to calculate it, you're like, fuck, what is that formula again? I'm not good at math, like, whatsoever.

[Anika] (31:36 - 31:44)

I barely made it through it in school. Like, I have a calculator on my phone, and I use it for everything.

[Stino] (31:44 - 32:19)

And if someone else like someone else on my team, Thomas, he's like genius, like he is like, he doesn't even need to have a calculator. So I let him, like you mentioned, own all of that needs to be calculated in our spreadsheet. And I just need to look at it.

I'm good at interpreting and what it means and what it will evolve into. But getting a number on that spreadsheet is where my mistake will happen. Because I will report like the wrong numbers, because I will come across with like an NRR of 145 and be like, oh my god, I'm nailing this.

[Anika] (32:19 - 32:28)

Yeah, I like get 145. Oh my god, that's Hall of Fame level. Do you work at like Snowflake?

That is Hall of Fame level of NRR.

[Stino] (32:28 - 32:33)

I will be like, just multiply it by 0.9 and be like, oh, yeah, that seems right.

[Anika] (32:36 - 34:23)

Oh my gosh, but I think it's again, I another like coming back to Melanie's point where she's like, the CSM wants to know, some of my CSMs know how to calculate it. And the reason I want them to know is like, I tell them to you're this I know we talked about this Melanie when we recorded like you're the CEO of your book of business. And if they can't calculate the metrics on their book of business and really own it, I can't expect them to be the leaders that I hope they would be at some point of their career.

And I think they need to know personally, I knew how to calculate this because I was very in tune that again, I'm very money driven, I'll be honest. And when I was a CSM, a big part of my bonus was hitting upsells and renewals. So you best believe I calculate exactly what my renewal rate is, because I knew that was the difference of, you know, five or $10,000.

That was a big thing for me. And I was just like, I need to know this. And that's what motivated me.

And I knew for my certain CSMs, they were motivated by seeing the actual result of their work, you know, I did this call, and it resulted in this renewal. Oh, my gosh, that makes sense for me. And so I used to do calculators with each of my CSMs at one of my companies, and I would break down on a quarterly basis with them what they needed to do to hit their goals and metrics, and ultimately their 20% bonus that they were calculated on.

And that motivated a lot of my CSMs knowing that and then they went away and did the calculations on their book of business, and they felt better about it. But I just think that knowing your numbers, whether you're a CSM, or a leader is really going to change how you like are perceived in the business, but also how you feel. Like, you feel so much better when you own this number.

And you're like, I know how to actually make this number better, for example.

[Melanie] (34:24 - 34:35)

Yeah. And beyond the money, like that, yes, the money's nice. It's nice to know what potential, like earnings could be.

But beyond that, I just want to know how I'm doing. Yeah, exactly.

[Anika] (34:35 - 34:51)

You know, this is so lagging. It's not like sales where it's I close this deal. And yay, that means 10,000 more or whatever, like CS is very lagging.

And you want to know your impact. It's I did 20 QBRs this quarter. What the heck did that mean?

[Melanie] (34:51 - 35:25)

Yeah, yeah. And I think it comes down to it. I think it becomes very clear if your leader does not understand that data or like what they should be pulling to help you.

I think that's where it becomes very clear. And it's always going to be muddied until they have a firm understanding of what it is that they're they need to report down to you to help you understand how you're doing in your role. I can't can't figure it out myself if I don't have access to the numbers.

So I have to rely on leaders to give me that info.

[Anika] (35:25 - 36:08)

Yeah. And I hope the leaders listening realize that you need to own it both up and down. I think a lot of leaders just think they have to own it up, meaning I have to report NRR or GRR or time to value or whatever the metric is to the board.

You do. Of course you do. You want to keep your job, but to keep your job, you need your team to also perform like it's a two way street.

It's not just me reporting the numbers like I need to help Melanie feel really comfortable because when she feels more comfortable, she's going to perform better. And when she performs better, my NRR number is better that I report to the board. It's all connected.

Yeah. But if you don't help or enable your team, which again, it really irks me when I hear that they like you don't get this. I'm like, what is your leader doing?

What are they doing?

[Stino] (36:08 - 36:58)

I think it's also like the getting off of your high horse a little bit as a leader. Again, I think a lot of has to do with carrying the title and having the feeling that someone is coming for your job, especially in today's job market where customer success jobs are very popular. I think it's a little bit more of that ego kind of thing where you're like, I'm owning this and I'm owning it as it's nothing that it's a good thing because I am all here for it, like transparency up and down.

But I think sometimes the majority of people have something like, yeah, but like I'm carrying that title. So it's my responsibility. So keeping the people quote unquote dumb will work in their favor, but it doesn't because I think it's that entire like ego kind of thing.

And truth be told, I was that person at that point.

[Anika] (36:58 - 38:31)

And it's normal though. You know, we all were, we were like protective of, oh my gosh, I'm never going to get a job like this or someone's going to come and someone on my team is going to take it away from me. But like the thing, I don't know, your career and your life is a long time.

And whether it's at one company or 50, I don't really care. Like the more you help other people succeed, the more you succeed. A lot of people question, oh, you moved into leadership and you moved into like senior executive really quickly.

And what's your secret? And I'm like, the secret is just making sure you are successful and your team is successful. And the only way to do that is enabling your team.

And to this day, I have team members that are more senior now in title than I am. They've carried more senior titles than me at bigger organizations. And I am here for it.

I'm like, yeah, sure. Because that's amazing that you had that that I in some very small way, had some sort of effect on your career. Yeah.

And I hope that like, people realize no, like the more you give, the more you get back. This is this is like life 101. I don't know.

Like, I think a lot of people see it as competition. And I'm like, no one in this room, except for me, is my own competition. And I just think that if you're going to continue giving to your team, they will eventually perform value.

And then yes, maybe they become the next head of CS. But also maybe you have such a stellar CS program that your entire board decides there's an executive seat available because your team is performing so well. But if you hide them away, it might not ever come or it might not actually happen.

[Stino] (38:33 - 38:55)

And on that note, Anta's episode on how we started it. She is the fairy godmother. She has laid down the first stone on how we know modern customer success.

She is the queen bee of CS. Anika, thank you so much for being with us today. What is the last final tip that you want to give to the audience?

[Anika] (38:56 - 39:29)

Oh my god. What can I say? I think I've said it all.

I don't know what more I can say. Yeah, there were so many good things. I think, I don't know, just be kind.

Like, I think like in the world that we live in and the tough times that we're all going through, like, kindness is totally free. And you don't know what someone's going through. You don't know what anyone else is feeling.

And it's tough out there. And we don't have to be assholes. I don't know.

Like, we really don't have to be assholes. Like, we can be kind. And being kind can lead to success.

I just think that people don't see it that way. They see it as a weakness. But I think it's a superpower.

[Stino] (39:30 - 39:41)

Don't you just want to pack her up, put her in like your pockets and be like, every time that you want, yeah, I feel good to be like, hmm. Anika, you are.

[Anika] (39:42 - 39:48)

Well, I wish I could give you guys hugs in person today. But with a virtual hug. Yes.

[Stino] (39:48 - 40:31)

There we go. No, thank you so much for this episode. Although we fucked up.

So you don't have to show. I counted it. We said only 25 times shit.

And technically, that's not swearing. But technically, I would say that's swearing. In Belgium, it doesn't consider it swearing.

No, thank you so much. We had so much fun. And everyone else, if you didn't already, hunt Anika down on LinkedIn.

Connect with her. She has the best podcast. She has the best CS program that you can think of.

Sign up for a newsletter because they are literally like the joy of the day to read. And other than that, like, shame on you if you aren't signed up. Don't listen to her podcast.

[Anika] (40:31 - 40:34)

Okay, no shame. No shame. If you want to, you can definitely connect with me.

[Stino] (40:35 - 40:44)

I think it's shameful. And thank you guys again for listening to we fucked up so you don't have to and we're more than happy to catch you in another episode. Bye bye.