#WFU Episode 19:

In this episode, we break down the topic everyone's talking about...burnout:

00:00:00 - Leadership is the problem

00:02:02 - Fresh perspectives at a new job

00:04:28 - Recognizing hidden burnout

00:05:40 - Global pressure and job insecurity

00:08:19 - Health insurance and overachievement

00:11:20 - Speed versus substance

00:15:28 - Losing your voice at work

00:17:19 - Leadership double standards

00:19:39 - Keep your options open

00:24:12 - Take responsibility for your happiness

00:26:52 - You’re making someone else rich

And hey, we want to hear from you! What topics do you want us to tackle next? Reach out and let us know. Remember, we’re here to share how We Fucked Up So You Don’t Have To.

Reach out to Melanie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanie-faye/

Reach out to Stino: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stijn-smet-%F0%9F%90%B3-330435a9/

[Stino] (0:00 - 0:15)

If you aren't feeling heard, that is not necessarily a you problem. That is a leadership problem. Unpopular opinion.

If you are feeling burned out, your leadership is utter shit. Sorry.

[Melanie] (0:15 - 0:17)

I think I agree with you.

[Stino] (0:17 - 0:31)

If your leader is not willing to do the same at the task at hand, it's a leadership problem. That is what makes a great leader. Don't ever something of your team that you wouldn't do yourself.

That is the thing.

[VO] (0:42 - 1:22)

Welcome to another exciting episode of We Fucked Up So You Don't Have To. Get ready to dive into the wild world of customer success with your hosts, Stino and Melanie. Join them as they peel back the curtain on their own mishaps and triumphs, sharing candid insights and practical advice along the way.

Stino, a charismatic head of customer success, brings his unfiltered wisdom to the table, while Melanie, the seasoned customer success manager, offers invaluable career insights. Together, they'll laugh, learn, and navigate the twists and turns of the customer success journey. So buckle up, and let's dive in.

[Stino] (1:27 - 1:41)

Hi, everyone, and welcome to a new episode of the We Fucked Up So You Don't Have To podcast. I'm here with my lovely co-host, Melanie. It's just the two of us.

It's just the Ménage à Deux again.

[Melanie] (1:42 - 1:46)

Just us. Just us. No one wanted to talk to us today.

[Stino] (1:46 - 1:47)

Not today.

[Melanie] (1:47 - 1:50)

But we've got a good topic today.

[Stino] (1:50 - 1:56)

We got a very good topic today. Have you been, like, you've been onboarding a month or a month and a half?

[Melanie] (1:57 - 2:02)

Yes, new role. I've been here, like, just over two months now. It's good.

[Stino] (2:03 - 2:03)

Oh my gosh, congratulations.

[Melanie] (2:04 - 2:19)

Thank you. Oh gosh, it's just been a whirlwind, like a huge change, and a huge good change. And you kind of realize, like, the things you put up with that seem normal, that maybe aren't so normal at another company.

[Stino] (2:20 - 2:37)

Yeah, no, like, it's always like a fresh pair of eyes, right? Like, it's, oh my god, you can do it the right way. Like, it is.

I think it's a huge part of experience, and also a little bit part of the topic that we're going to talk about today, that you don't need to take stuff for granted, just like marriage.

[Melanie] (2:41 - 2:45)

Oh, we had to sneak that in there. Yes, congratulations.

[Stino] (2:45 - 2:51)

I need to. Every chance that I get to, like, flaunt a ring, I'm like, what?

[Melanie] (2:54 - 2:58)

That's a pretty gorgeous ring, though. I can see why you want to flaunt that.

[Stino] (2:59 - 3:07)

I mean, I love that, by the way. Like, just being married, because now I have the feeling that I can start a fight whenever I want, and be like, what are you going to do? Divorce me?

[Melanie] (3:08 - 3:10)

Well, there is such a thing as divorce.

[Stino] (3:11 - 3:28)

But that's the thing, though. It's super easy to get married. I think it's just like a hustle to get, like, a divorce, right?

So in that sense, I'm like, so you're not going to do it to Duchess, so let me start it. Like, let me pick a fight with you. You're not going anywhere.

Like, you are now, like, I got you.

[Melanie] (3:29 - 3:32)

Poor Tom. Oh my god, I hope he can't hear this.

[Stino] (3:33 - 4:28)

But that's the thing, though. Like, whenever I sometimes see him, I'm like, I get this overwhelming feeling of, like, love for him, because I'm like, oh my god, you're going to be with me for the rest of my life. Normally, I wouldn't be a fan of those big clichés.

Like, I'm the first one to be like, whenever someone says, oh my god, my wedding was the most beautiful day of my life. I was like, yeah, sure it is. The most beautiful day of my life is whenever a new episode of The Real Housewives is released, or when we finally have a windstop in Belgium.

But all jokes aside, it was one of the best days of my life, because just, like, having all your family and friends together, it's like, it literally kicks out all of the negativity and everything that keeps you, like, also work-wise, right? Just, like, it makes you forget everything. And that was a nice introduction, I think, on the topic on how we're going to talk about today.

So take it away. Do the intro.

[Melanie] (4:28 - 5:39)

Yeah, let's talk about burnout. So have you ever fucked up and not cared about how you felt on the job? Like, I was saying just, you know, before we started this, that I feel like there's so much pressure, not just as a CSM, this is really for any role.

But I think there's such a pressure as a CSM, or even a team lead or a manager, to know everything and to be on and to be on top of your book of business and be able to spit out answers. And, you know, you kind of forget that, at the end of the day, it is just a job, you still have your health, and you still have yourself to worry about, and this work-life balance. And so I think something that I recognized after I left my last role is that I was so burnt out, but I didn't even realize it.

Like, I went for a couple of years, like, back-to-back calls were normal, all of these internal meetings were normal, staying late and starting early was normal, because that's how I needed to get the work done to be a performer, right? So yeah, I think those were definitely things that I avoided thinking about how I felt, and was giving so much to the company and to my customers.

[Stino] (5:40 - 8:19)

I think the root causes as well, like laying down to the culture of your company, and this is where I fucked up as a manager as well, is if you're hiring around the globe, I think like work ethic-wise and company culture-wise is so different across the globe, because we're hiring in the US right now, and all the love to people that are listening from the US, or I don't, I can't say the same for Canada, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but like I know for the US that it's a very, how would I put it, like it's work at will.

I don't know if you have the same in Canada, but it's like work at will, where people basically get fired in like an instance and be like, hey, yeah, you have two weeks notice, please leave. And I've noticed that people are often now trying to overachieve all the time, and feel like this pressure constantly, because they have that feeling, because it's like work at will or work, I don't know the exact name, but it's basically, you have a contract, but it's like, what the difference is with Europe is we have like contracts that don't expire, and if we get fired, for instance, we have a notice period of three to six months. What I noticed in the States is that it's basically work at free will or something like that, where you as an employer, but also you as an employee can basically wake up one day and be like, yeah, I'm done, bye. I do get that, that it inflicts some kind of other pressure that I've experienced in my career, where it's basically, I need to hit those targets day in, day out, because I can be cut when the numbers aren't good, and I only have two weeks notice.

So I do get the pressure, especially in the job market today, that it's like culture wise, it's also already very different. Because the thing is, I'm not saying that we don't feel the pressure to hit our targets, because indeed, also there, if you're not performing, you're out, of course. But I think the risk of losing your job, because we're also having a company culture, the majority of our companies in Europe, that people that I know from or that I work for, like having a PIP, like a performance improvement plan is something that is very valid with us, like we really try to keep our people and to make them better.

And I sometimes have the feeling that in the States, it's not really the case. And again, it's not a blame, it's just something that I've noticed, where sometimes if you're not performing, you're cut. So that is already an easy way to get burned out very easily if you constantly have the anxiety of losing your job.

[Melanie] (8:19 - 9:04)

Yeah, I think it's job loss. And I think like, in the States to your health insurance is tied to your being employed. And so that that brings a whole other thing.

If people if you depend on health insurance, and other people are depending on you for that insurance, like there's so many factors that can keep you in the zone of wanting to do more and do better, even if you can't, like you're just overachieving. And that's the other thing I think a lot of us in tech are high achievers to begin with. So we already have set the bar pretty high for ourselves.

And it's so easy to try and one up that all the time and just be doing better for yourself, but also to get to that next level, maybe you want to move into a manager role or a leadership role. And how are you going to do that you have to be able to outperform?

[Stino] (9:05 - 11:16)

Yeah, and that's the thing. But on the other hand, we need to step away of overperforming. The majority of leaders are result driven.

And I do have the feeling that it's a constant balance between pace and being precise. Often managers, myself included, are looking for results, not necessarily on how fast you did something, right? If you need a number to hit, for example, like your churn quota, or your expansion quota, or your call quota, or the amount of QBRs that you're doing quota, but that last one or those last two ones are like shit quota.

If you're having those quota, please leave your company immediately. But the point that I'm trying to make is that I honestly don't care if you do a task in an hour or in two hours, like I'm not going to give you a pat on the back if you're doing what I've asked you to do under an hour, right. And that's the thing that we need to step away from and need to do as managers much better is that we need to lay down the expectations as well.

And I think that is also like the what you can do the other way around because I fucked up burning myself out when I started at Will three years ago. But there's also a little bit the fault of my leadership, to be honest, is when I first started out in Will, I wanted to overachieve. If my founder asked me something, I just wanted to do it under an hour to impress him.

But what I did wrong is trying to overrun myself and half offing that result. Yeah, because I was so happy that I could do it under an hour, but I forgot a couple of details. So he got pissed saying, can you revisit that because you forgot or he did this and this not very good.

And then you are losing on two fronts. One, you didn't get the acknowledgement because you try to make pace and you let your founder down. So also it can your need to revisit.

So basically, you're doing the exact same work in the exact amount of time that you could do it the first time, right?

[Melanie] (11:17 - 11:19)

With more pressure now, because now you're panicked.

[Stino] (11:20 - 13:15)

Yeah, 100%. The amount of times that I had during my first year where I was like, okay, now I need to pack my car burger box, put in my plans, I moved to the elevator kind of vibe. Like I always had that feeling.

I always had a feeling not only at will but also at my previous jobs where I was like, this is the one. This is this is the cardboard box moment. This is this is not it.

But that's the thing, though. overachieving doesn't necessarily mean that you need to do some stuff twice the pace or half the pace that you're like would normally do. Like people are not going to be like, oh my god, you did that under 20 minutes.

It's results driven. And we see that as well, going into like job description of a customer success manager. No one cares how fast that you are.

No one is going to care. If you have, for example, had a book of business of 1000 customers, people will just like the job of customer success is going to be results driven is going to be revenue driven. Another example that I want to give my founder came last year to me and he was like, let's double the amount of expansion that you did last quarter was like a gig.

Okay. I had a goal to hit. I know I had a quarter, I was not going to make myself crazy to reach that goal under a month.

I had three months to reach that goal. Was it good that I would overachieve it 100% but I first needed to make sure that I had that set goal right. And otherwise, that's also the perfect balance between overachieving and just being good at your job.

Maybe I could have done that in the first two months of a quarter, but that may be next month. He expected me to do even more triple it.

[Melanie] (13:15 - 13:16)

Yep.

[Stino] (13:17 - 13:49)

Especially if I already burned myself out trying to get that done in two months. Again, leaders are result driven. My founder was very happy that I was hitting my goal a day shy from the end of the quarter.

But I didn't twist myself. Of course, I was going to look for other instances on how to get that goal because I didn't have a really clear plan on how to get there. That's the thing though.

Don't burn yourself out trying to overachieve. Yeah, go for the result. No one cares on how fast it is.

[Melanie] (13:49 - 14:14)

Yeah, I think that's a good point. And I also think that type of transparency needs to come from the leadership team. Because if you're being asked to meet a goal, that needs to be said, right?

It's not a race. You don't have an hour to get it done. You've got until the next quarter.

But I think all of that needs to be super transparent so that people aren't panicking or competing or trying to do something that they feel is not achievable.

[Stino] (14:15 - 14:18)

Yeah, no 100%. What about you?

[Melanie] (14:19 - 15:27)

Where do I start? Well, that's one of the reasons why I'm saying that I think like transparency is so key. Otherwise, you're like literally working by yourself to get something done.

And you're going to either end up doing it and getting it done, but still feeling like now you feel like shit because outside of work, it starts affecting you. It's affecting you inside of work. I'm the type of person that once I get to a certain point, it's just better to move on.

Because I know I can't fix the way I feel or if I feel let down or if I feel burnt out or if I feel a certain kind of way about my team. It's just better for me to start over somewhere else. There isn't kind of no coming back from it.

And you as soon as I started feeling like I could not be there for my customers or kind of turn things around for my customers. That's when I was like, Oh, this must be what it feels like to be. I'm burnt out.

I don't know how to fix it. I don't know how to continue doing my job the best way that I can. And I think that's where we start to lose a lot of team members and valuable team members who can't keep up with the pace.

[Stino] (15:27 - 15:31)

Is this also because they're losing their voice a little bit maybe?

[Melanie] (15:32 - 16:08)

I think like losing your voice, but also just maybe not being heard. I think you know, we all say things or have one on ones with our leaders and hope that the things that we say will result in change or result in processes being changed or things like that. But when you're not heard or when you're bringing things up for over and over again, you know what I mean?

Like when you have ideas that are relevant, and you're hoping that things can change and the rest of the team feels the same way. That's when it gets really frustrating. And that's when I think things can just turn really negative.

And that's when it's really hard to turn it around again.

[Stino] (16:09 - 16:13)

Yeah, no 100%. Also there, it comes a lot from leadership, right?

[Melanie] (16:14 - 16:14)

Yeah.

[Stino] (16:15 - 16:31)

If you aren't feeling heard, that is not necessarily a you problem. It's a leadership problem. Unpopular opinion.

If you are feeling burnt out, your leadership is utter shit. Sorry.

[Melanie] (16:31 - 16:57)

I think I agree with you. I think there's the wrong direction coming from leadership, or maybe they have the right idea, but it's being forced on you in the wrong way. Or it's not a discussion.

And it's a demand, you know, just like things like that, or people being called out on Slack in front of the rest of the team for something like there's just really shitty things that a leader can do that will start to affect the morale of the team.

[Stino] (16:58 - 17:19)

If you as a leader, if you're a leader, or just as an IC, if you're a leader and not willing to do the same at the task at hand, it's a leadership problem. That is what makes a great leader. Don't ever ask something of your team that you wouldn't do yourself.

That is the thing. Like if, I mean...

[Melanie] (17:19 - 17:23)

I love that.

[Stino] (17:23 - 19:07)

That is the thing, though. If you feel uncomfortable or you're not even hitting your own quota, like also, you as a leader need to be held at the same standards. And that is something that often goes away in companies.

Go down of your high horse. That is literally the thing on how you... I think the burnout problem is not necessarily a person problem.

Well, maybe 20%. Maybe sometimes you can't work well in a high pressure environment or where there is like quick pace, especially in early startups. You need to be built for that.

Cut the crap. If you're super fluffy and just used to working at 20, 30, 40 accounts and are easily overwhelmed, totally fine. But go for a more enterprise company where it's like a larger team or great structure.

If you are working in a startup, startups are chaos. Like chaos, chaos, chaos. If you don't thrive in that environment, of course, you're going to get burned out because you don't know how to handle that.

So first thing, please know what environment you thrive best in. If you know the exact environment that you thrive in and you're still getting burned out, shit leadership. And the best way on how you can look at that is if your leader, if your manager is not comfortable doing it themselves.

The easiest way on how to detect if a manager is doing a good job or not is asking them, how would you do it? If you're feeling a little bit overwhelmed, if you're feeling like, okay, I don't know how I will get here, ask your manager. How would you do it?

If they don't come up with a great answer or they can't answer that, then be like, yeah, figure it out yourself. Mm-mm, mm-mm, mm-mm.

[Melanie] (19:07 - 19:39)

That's such a good point. Yeah. Or if they get defensive and can't really answer why you're doing something or why there's this initiative, red flags everywhere.

But that's also the other part of the problem, right? This is a crappy job market. You can't just quit and then something's going to come along the next day and it's going to be your perfect role.

So what's your advice? How would you deal with that? If you had not great leadership, you're already burnt out, you cannot get all the work done in a day, there's too many tasks, there's too many priorities.

What do you do as an IC?

[Stino] (19:40 - 20:46)

The thing is, also maybe unpopular opinion, always keep your options open. Yeah. You are in a luxurious position.

I love to always look at things that happen on LinkedIn. I always want to know, and not that I want to leave a whale whatsoever, but I have a genuinely curiosity on what is happening on the market. I genuinely want to know who is hiring their new next TSM.

That other stuff that I'm interested in, just generally as a person. And I know exactly nine years ago when I first started in Customer Success, there was a colleague of mine that said, always keep your alerts open on LinkedIn. And I was like, why?

Just to see what's happening in the market, how the job descriptions are, who is hiring, what the pay is, for instance. And sometimes just for like shits and giggles, just apply, just to see on how you are, like, well in the market. And you never know if something better comes along.

Not that I'm saying that I'm applying whatsoever, but I generally, since then, have curiosity on which company is hiring.

[Melanie] (20:46 - 20:46)

Yeah.

[Stino] (20:48 - 24:11)

Maybe something else comes along, and then it fits better in the timeline that you're in in your job. And also, on the other fact, don't be afraid to go for a lesser title if the job functionality makes you feel better at another company. I think people often are also staring blind on titles.

Like, a title is not going to make you happy. I also dare, like, I may be the head of Customer Success, but I keep referring to myself as a Customer Success Manager. That's doing my job.

I love my job. I love Will. I love my customers.

Who the fuck cares about a job title? It's not going to be on my obituary later when I'm in the ground. It's not going to update my entire resume.

I do get it. It's a strong job market, but sometimes it's good to take a step back if it's for your own mental health. Like, keep all of your options open.

I agree. I do want to be a cabin crew member one day. It's no joke.

Sometimes I just want to be a teacher. Sometimes I'm like, maybe I should apply and train for a cabin crew member for a season. The world is your oyster.

One of the things that I've learned as well along the way is, one, people are not going to stay for you. If other people, regardless of their CSM or not, if they find a better opportunity, even if they're your best work friends, they're going to jump ship if it's best for them. That is a lesson that I've learned the hard way.

Second thing is, you're not married to customer success. Also there, you need to also flip it the other way around. A lot of people are trying to break into customer success with transferable skills.

Also, it works the exact same the other way around. You have transferable skills. What is it that you still want to do in life?

For example, again, I want to be a cabin crew member later in my life, maybe in five years from now, just to have a break from customer success. Also, let's be honest, it's the most beautiful job in the world, but sometimes, fuck me, it's the worst job in the world. Let's be honest.

I don't wake up every day and be like, oh, I love being in CS. I'm already out of CS. Fuck that.

Let's already burst that bubble. CS, I love it, but I also hate it at the same time from day to day. Also there, think about the skills that you've grown over the past couple of years.

I want to be a teacher as well, maybe closer to my pension. You are good. I want to maybe work in a store, give clothing advice, go back to a supermarket.

Okay, it's not the exact same pay, but also there, be willing to make sacrifices to the standard that you've built for yourself. If that is what makes you happy for your mental health, please do. There will always be opportunities.

If it's not now, you don't need to be in customer success. You can easily search another job where you have those capabilities, maybe for a bridge to another customer success kick. Keep networking, keep your eyes open, keep trying.

That is a thing people sometimes, and again, unpopular opinion, but people sometimes think it's the end of the world if they don't get a customer success job. God, please forbid. There are a lot of jobs in the world that you can temporarily do until your next big thing is on there.

Don't hate.

[Melanie] (24:12 - 24:49)

I think all of that is so valid. The other thing is sometimes you're also responsible for your own happiness. You can sit in a job and complain and hate it and know that you're burnt out, but you still have to take that next step to get yourself out of that.

Otherwise, you're drowning. It's worse and worse and worse. It's your responsibility to take care of your own happiness.

If that means making a move, then that's what you need to do. At some point, it becomes, okay, I'm not being heard. Nothing's going to change.

I can't keep up with this pace anymore. Now, it's time to move on and find something that hopefully is a better fit.

[Stino] (24:50 - 25:27)

Yeah. There is no one in the world that is going to hold you against your will. No, literally no one.

Again, I love customer success with all my heart. It gives me the biggest joys of my life. Also, on the other hand, you're not married to customer success.

It is a great community. I added yesterday, just at the lunch table, where I was like, yeah, maybe in five years from now, I'm going to go for cabin crew. I want to try something else because I'm good with customers.

Okay, maybe it's not going to be the best head of CS, but I know it's going to, I think, make me happy.

[Melanie] (25:28 - 25:34)

Why can I see you doing that? Welcome to your flight. I am your flight director, Stino.

[Stino] (25:35 - 25:59)

I mean, but also there, I would not be happier with just a cabin crew member. I would immediately go for Perser, right? Because I have that senior cabin crew member.

Yes. You can. There are other careers.

Being a CSM has so many talents. You're good with customers. You're good at storytelling.

There are so many jobs in the world that you can just try and apply.

[Melanie] (25:59 - 26:16)

Yeah, I agree. You're not a failure if you decide to make a huge move. And you're not a failure if you make a lateral move.

Who cares? If you move to another company because it's a good feeling in the interview, like all the vibes are good, then go jump ship. Go be happier somewhere else.

[Stino] (26:17 - 26:30)

I think the major reason for burnout is the expectations from someone else and not looking at yourself. I think that is literally the bottom line because we're burning ourselves out to make someone else happy, to fill the pockets of someone else.

[Melanie] (26:31 - 26:51)

Yes, I know. When you really sit down and think about it, that's what you're doing. You're making someone else rich.

Chances are your stock options or whatever it is that you call when you sign your contract, you're not going to make money off of that down the road. So yeah, I totally agree. You go make money for someone where you're actually happy doing that.

[Stino] (26:52 - 28:24)

Yeah. No, 100%. I think we can end with that.

I don't know if he answered the question. I'm feeling like we're super passionate about. But I think burning out is not a you problem.

It's more like the expectations that you set yourself. And don't try to look at someone else because they will do the exact same thing for themselves. Like if they're true friends, if they're really, I'm looking for the words in English, but if they're really like considerate of your feelings and how you're feeling, I think the majority already consider the culture and the leadership that you're working with.

If they're not comfortable doing it on their own, red flag. Keep your LinkedIn alerts open again, just to be curious on what's happening on the market. There is no more blind feeling that after five years and you're like, maybe I should leave and be like, oh shit, what is happening?

If I wouldn't have been open for the last five years, I wouldn't know that it would be such a sometimes hard time to get a job, right? So just those kinds of things. And I love what you said, make your own happiness.

And there is a world after customer success, even if it's a temporary world. If you just want to have a break. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for listening to another episode of the We Fucked Up So You Don't Have to podcast.

We're taking a little, not break, but we're on leave, but we're coming back to you with new episodes in the beginning of July. Talk to you soon. Bye.